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Author Topic: What Police Say about Self-Defense  (Read 85084 times)

mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2007, 06:15:21 PM »
Although it may sound strange that the Glock “has no safety.”  Actually it has quite a few safety mechanisms that will prevent it from firing unless the trigger is pulled (Some lesser weapons can actually fire when dropped on the muzzle!).

There is no classic safety lever. However, the gun will not fire unless you pull the trigger.  There are many reasons that so many police departments prefer the Glock. Among them are that it is extremely reliable, corrosion resistant, has few parts (and most of those are interchangeable among guns).  It’s also easy to fire accurately and rapidly because the barrel sits low giving more of a straight back recoil (less torque leading to muzzle flip).

For many, the fact that it doesn’t have an exposed hammer, a safety lever, a decocking lever, etc. actually makes the weapon safer because there are fewer elements to keep going over during periodic training.  Pretty much all you have to remember is “Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire” and it’s completely safe.  If you pull the trigger, it will go off.  If that’s not safe enough you can’t be helped and would probably fumble with all sorts of levers and controls anyway.

One added thing about the lack of a classic safety lever—normal double action revolvers don’t have safety levers either and nobody considers a revolver as unsafe.
Something I like about the Glock over semiauots with a double action first shot is that the take-up on the Glock’s first shot is just as long but isn’t so hard that your first shot is a “throw away” like with some DA semiautos.

There will always be a group of gun enthusiasts who hate the Glock because it’s ugly and sounds like it shoots rubber bands when dry firing.

Buy a Glock then get a Blackhawk Serpa holster that completely covers the trigger guard.  That holster secures the weapon perfectly and the holster release is exactly where your finger should be on the draw—alongside the frame and off the trigger.

mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2007, 06:25:09 PM »
All this talk about shooting is rather interesting.  I'd like to remind folks that there is a difference between civil court and criminal court.

Also keep in mind that if you ever are involved in a shooting and you know the person who was shot, you are going to have the crap investigated out of you.  You are not going to be viewed as immaculate like you would if you were just walking through the mall and some nut job went berserk and you had to defend everybody.

No matter how justified you may be, there's always a chance the court will agree that your attacker was a scumbag and they're glad he's gone.  However they may figure you're a scumbag too. Hmmm...one of you is dead and let's put the other away for life.  Problem solved! We've gotten rid of two scumbags.

amesalarm

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2007, 07:56:16 PM »
Allstar:

I'm an old guy, so I take refresher courses about once a year now. It's kinda like driving...
the old crock behind the wheel is the last to know that he shouldn't be there...

Before I step down off of this soapbox, I'll add a couple of things:

Keep your home firearm where an intruder can't find it, or can't get to it, but YOU can
get to it quickly.

Know your firearm so well, that you can load it, unload it, put the safety on or off, and
change clips by touch...a completely dark envirionment.

Last thing...don't pass your new pistola (even if it's unloaded) around to your friends who stop by the house. As I'm sure you already know, it's not a macho toy, it's a tool to be taken
seriously.

[Note to mjohnsonn: key word in my previous post was "experience". There is a reason for
some police departments to require additional training for their officers to undergo
additional training if they carry a Glock, as well as requiring a modified 8 pound trigger pull.
Too many holes in the ceiling of the squad room. I'm sure that you're comfortable and safe
with your Glock. I just wouldn't recommend it to a newbie.]

Best to all...

Doug
amesalarm




« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 08:02:07 PM by amesalarm »

rahnie

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 09:13:21 PM »
well i started this thread and have read and sure as heck agree with the general attitude of all ya all........i've caught two guys breaking into my vehicle and frankly never thought once about any ramifications of my actions.....i just knew I WAS RIGHT.....the one guy got more of a beating overnight than i gave him and the federales confirmed the next morning that i would take credit for it and he wouldn't get off on police brutality (that was a cool conversation for sure....at first i thought they were after me....i told a story and they said don't worry, it's all good)........nonetheless, living here in Canada i would reluctantly have to be totally opposed to private citizens being here allowed to carry concealed firearms........unlike Texas and states that i much admire for their attitude -> "do what you want and take what's coming to you" as far as screwing with someone elses property, we don't have a culture that has had this in place for a long time.......we don't have that experience as a people here and to suddenly allow pseudo trained folks to carry firearms without great granddad having trained granddad having trained dad et al will create....well...let your imagination roam....a whack of folks that know how to use a gun but don't know the etiquette...i figure i can crack a guy with one of the field hockey sticks i have around my home hard enough to deal with his knife or mutant size.....i kinda know that by the time he comes to he won't know whether he's been punched, bored or pecked out by crows......big city cops I'm not sure about...we don't get alot of police shooting someone up here but every time i see footage on tv....there's about 20 cops zeroed in on some goof brandishing a knife and when the first cop fires they all let loose......safety in numbers eh?.....who fired first?... which bullet killed him?....death by consensus....nonetheless only one of them said "yup, kill him"...cheers
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 09:23:36 PM by rahnie »
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mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 10:57:42 PM »
Can't really disagree with anything you've said, amesalarm.  Nothing wrong with the 8 lb version of the Glock--more like a double action revolver then without the safety.  As far as cops shooting holes in the ceiling with a Glock...I still stand by the assertion that the trigger was pulled or the Glock wouldn't have gone off.  Thing is with all the strange anti-snatch holsters and other various cop complications I suppose some configuration or another could end up with a cops finger on the trigger and pulling it back while in the office (and pointed at the ceiling!?).

security-systems

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2007, 10:26:26 AM »
I believe that we as Americans got the whole weapons issue all wrong. Try to obtain a gun in America - that'll take you 5 minutes, if you are slow. Try and get a gun anywhere else in the world - it'll take you weeks and weeks, and that's if you are fast and well connected.
Why do so many people in our country feel the need to carry a weapon? why in most of the western world - they don't feel that need?
I don't even trust myself with a gun - let alone trusting any of you or my neighbors or even my own children with it.

mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2007, 03:37:13 PM »
I don't really know the answer to your question and I guess it would be great if there were no weapons of any kind available to anyone ever.  Problem is, that's la la land and not reality.  I can tell you why I need weapons....it's because bad people have them.

BTW all the Nordic countries have a fully automatic rifle in every home that has an able bodied young man and they don't shoot each other up. An Israeli citizen can check out a weapon any time they want and they don't shoot each other up.  The police station is full of people with guns and they don't shoot each other up.  The idea that where they don't have guns they don't have bad things going on is a joke.  There are places with and without guns where there's bad and good behavior.  It's not the guns causing trouble, it's bad folks and we have a lot of them here. Note how effective outlawing Cocaine has been.  I'm pretty sure badguys are going to do whatever they have to to get guns.

When you can snap your fingers and make it so (la la land again) the bad guys don't have guns then I won't need to carry one.  I guess we shouldn't have a military either or armed police!?

Magnum Alert

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2007, 04:25:32 PM »
I respect those who believe they should not own a gun.  however, malicious crimes have shown us that guns are being used more and more as a status symbol.  we've all seen that criminals will use their firearm without reason, and with no signs of remorse or conscience.

gun control is a back-and-forth issue in this nation because of the heinous crimes that have occurred.  I partially blame the media for glorifying such incidents (like calling the virginia tech incident a "new record" of 30-some people being killed.  we use the word "record", but we also associate records with competition, a legacy that shall be broken in the years to come).  it seems like in each corner of the country, heinous gun crimes are everywhere and I think that society is starting to accept this as a way of life.

guns are not necessarily a bad thing.  we can't blame the firearm if it's in the hands of a suicidal lunatic who wants to make a name for himself and "go out with a bang".  the gun might have been originally purchased by a man who hunts for a living, to feed his family.  then he trades it in for another model, then, the gun has no control over its next owner.  yes, it's a tragedy when these incidents do occur, but if the media didn't spend 2 weeks analyzing the crime and the criminal and repeatedly going over the number of people killed and the higher number of lives ruined and families destroyed, maybe these criminals will lose the motivation to commit such a crime.  look at all the attention they get!  attention is exactly what they want.  attention and a legacy.

if you don't believe guns are for you, that is 100% okay.  but I'd hate to be the non-gun-owner  who wakes up in the middle of the night and sees a shadow behind a flashlight moving up his stairs, not knowing if that person is armed and what he's gonna do.  but he does know he doesn't have a firearm or really any way of protecting himself.  he's at the mercy of an armed criminal.  day after day, we see these situations go bad.  really bad.  you do have the right to defend yourself.  and I fully support those who take advantage of that right.


but, if you do own a gun, you have another obligation to your family, to keep them safe from accidental deaths resulting from it.  gun ownership, that is, PROPER gun ownership is a 2-way street.  this is why we have stringent laws and background checks and gun ownership courses for those who obtain them the legal, proper way.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 01:34:07 AM by dboyle »
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sarge816

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2007, 06:36:39 PM »
12 year copper here, and I carry a Glock 21c (.45), love it.  Highly recommended once you get used to the trigger.  Ofcourse, I started police work when it wasn't so odd to see some of the old guys carrying revolvers (I started with one), and I still think a good revolver is probably the very best home defense weapon out there (besides a shotgun!)  Revolvers don't jam, there is no safety (that you will almost assuredly forget to click in the heat of an encounter), and the darn things are really easy to shoot.  Yes, you get only 6 bullets (although some models of .357 have up to eight), but I can promise you that once you start unloading rounds at an intruder, he's either running for his life or he's dead.  Semi-autos are great, but if you buy one you should definitely train with it - alot.  In one of our officer related shootings (officer shot, he survived), the officer was foot pursuing some turds who turned around on him and starting shooting.  He was by himself, just rounded the corner of a building, and found himself taking fire.  In the heat of the shoot out his pistol stove-piped (he inadvertently limp wristed it).  This stuff happens all to often with pistols, not so with revolvers.

A glock is about as close to a revolver as you can get, but it's still a semi-auto with a slide and ejects rounds.  Training is the key.

mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 03:01:11 AM »
Sarge, I sure agree with your comment about the shotgun.  Nobody in there right mind could possibly pick a handgun over a shotgun for home defense.  A handgun might be slightly more maneuverable, but a shotgun with an 18" barrel isn't far behind and it's way more effective.  Besides, when on your home turf, the maneuverability aspect is lessened anyway.  I don't think anyone would argue much with my choice: A Remington 870 12 gauge with 18 barrel (cylinder or improved cylinder).  Birdshot at room ranges will probably work as well as anything and be less likely do damage to an adjacent home.

Rahnie, on the cops shooting the badguy holding a knife:  Sarge could probably tell us about the Tueller drill and that someone can close 7 yards in 1.5s.  Someone closer has a good chance at sticking you by the time you perceive and react.  Also note that no handgun you're likely to be using even close to 100% effective with a single shot unless there's a headshot.

One other thing to think about is that if you see a dangerous person brandishing a firearm, you could get shot saying "drop the gun" like they do in the movies.  Try this experiment...have a friend point his finger at you.  You stand facing 90 degrees from your friend and point your finger the way you're facing.  Instruct your friend to say bang when he sees you turn to point your finger at him.  At close range, you can often turn, aim your finger right at his face and say "bang" very quickly before he can perceive and react.  So even if you have your finger on the trigger, when you're under tremendous stress, someone you have at gunpoint could turn and fire too quickly for you to defend yourself.

sarge816

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 05:48:01 PM »
Rahnie, on the cops shooting the badguy holding a knife:  Sarge could probably tell us about the Tueller drill and that someone can close 7 yards in 1.5s.  Someone closer has a good chance at sticking you by the time you perceive and react.
Absolutely correct.  One of our in-service training videos back when I was a rookie had Dan Inosanto (student of Bruce Lee) acting the part of the crook, demonstrating just how devastating a knife attack can be.  The officer stood 21 feet from Dan, who closed the distance and stabbed the officer (simulated, obviously) before he could pull his pistol from his holster and fire.  Now, Dan is a martial arts master obviously, but he still is human and can only run so fast.  Any motivated bad guy could be on you very quickly from what would seem a safe distance, and you do NOT want to be the victim of a knife attack.

And I love the cheesy Hollywood dramatization of how cops always say "Freeze!" before firing on an armed suspect.  In real life, mjohnsonn has it totally right - it takes the average person 3/4 of a second to react normally to an input or threat, and that might be enough time for a crook to shoot you before you can shoot them.

In Houston, there was a cop working a bank job (off duty employment, in uniform and armed) when a couple of heavily armed thugs came into the bank.  The officer recognized that these were serious baddys, and he saw them before they saw him.  He fired on them as they were coming in through the front door, no verbal nonsense to give them a chance to blow him away with their shotguns.  He saved the day, saved his own life, and more importantly may have saved the lives of innocent workers and customers inside the bank.  Reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live skit, where the cops would find the bad guy and unload, then yell out "FREEEEEZE!"  :)

rahnie

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 11:32:07 PM »
so from that it be ok to kill (by whatever means) an intruder in your home that could go from 0 to killer faster than i could react?......no warning, no real evidence of a weapon, just big or possibly drugged up enough to potentially do real physical harm to the occupants?.....i know there is a big difference between that and a guy brandishing a knife confronting 10 cops with guns levelled disobeying orders to drop the knife that takes one step too far......i suppose my original question becomes what are your rights in your own home.....indeed what right does the burglar have to walk out alive?                                   http://forum.homesecuritystore.com/index.php?topic=13557.0

« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 11:36:23 PM by rahnie »
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mjohnsonn

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 01:03:45 AM »
There typically are no hard rules.  Every case is a little different.  Some places have the castle doctrine, which means you don't have to retreat when you're in your home, but you still can't just shoot somebody. You shoot somebody, you're going to wind up in court.  When you're in court, they are going to think about what "a reasonable person" would have done.  Almost anything could happen to you in court.  Civil court is yet another problem on top.  Much better to avoid the whole thing the best you can...now we're back to what this forum is about...get a really good security system and arm it properly while you're home and there's a good chance the badguys will run.

I think the best thing to do before hurting anybody is to retreat until you can't retreat any more and have no other option to avoid being seriously hurt.

If you do end up in court, you better have a good lawyer.  My opinion is that if someone has broken into a house where people are obviously home, that criminal is particularly dangerous.  Most burglars look for homes where the folks are away. Anyway, if you just wake up (you are particularly vulnerable) and there's a threat, you have to decide what to do. You obviously shouldn't use deadly force unless absolutely necessary.  Take it any way you want, but it is very possible for someone to turn, aim, and fire really quickly.  So whatever you do, you'd better be pretty effective. All this is JMO and not in any way directing you to act in any way.


sarge816

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 12:57:14 PM »
Texas (where I live) is one of those states where criminally you probably won't have to worry about shooting the crook invading your home.  Those living in the liberal states have far more to worry about than those living in conservative states, as a general rule.  But that's not always the case either, depending upon what laws are already on the books.

Civil trials are a crap shoot any way you slice them - like mentioned, better have a good lawyer.  Even if the crook dies, the family will almost certainly try to sue over some type of "wrongful death" BS.  Each state has different laws and attitudes towards home invasion, self defense, and when wrongful death occurs.  You can often find any given states Penal Code on the internet with a simple google search.

Oh, and you couldn't pay me enough money to be a cop in California.  :D

johnd393

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Re: What Police Say about Self-Defense
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2007, 04:42:12 AM »
http:/www.nhregister.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18400389&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=517514&rfi=6

 

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